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Thread: Transferrable M1919A4E1 Guns, anybody got a feeling for how common?

  1. #1

    Transferrable M1919A4E1 Guns, anybody got a feeling for how common?

    We picked up a Saginaw Gear C&R Amnesty Gun recently with all of the tanker parts. It is in regular A4 configuration but we have the parts. I am told that it was in a Museum. Subsequently it was registered in the Amnesty at the same time as another like it by the same person.

    I saw a couple of older posts here and a very nice article on 1919tech. I understand what the gun is but wonder how rare it may be. I suppose just being a C&R puts it in a fairly rare catagory. I have never seen another E1 and the Ian and Dolfs books seems to indicate that it is exceedingly rare.

    The gun is in the serial number range in the second to last batch out of GM in Feb, '45. CHances are it never made it to war. It is stamped by EB (Inpector at RIA) during build into E1 form and also has the RIA markings same as the ones shown at 1919tech.

    THanks for any information anyone has on these, if any. This is our first belt-fed and it is pretty exciting. To bad transfers are taking so darn long this time.

    Lastly, the gun is still in .30-06. We plan to use cloth belts. I am seeing the ones at Kambee Keep that are 100 round and they say they are the "Grommet" type. Anyone have any of these. Price is right. I am also seeing original 250 rd belts at Ohio Ordnance. The price seems ok, they are around $36. THis seems ok. Any input? I think we should also pick up some new bbls. The NOS 30-06 in the wrap are $199. I know this is about double the ones listed everywhere as "good" condition. My thought is the probably will last more than twice as long. THinking these may be a good option. I am not sure how long they last. Probably longer than my budget for '06 ammo!

    This is my first post. Sorry so long. I have a lot of pent up questions.

  2. #2
    Well let me be the first to say, "Welcome to the forum".

    I know absolutely nothing about the M1919a4E1 but I am sure someone will chime in with more info for you. Sure hope you will be posting some pictures of your new purchase when you receive it.

  3. #3

    I will be posting Pix,

    I may be able to scan some into a file to post. I have pretty decent pictures now. Thank you for the kind welcome. I am getting a lot of good information here. I have used Subguns.com for years and love it but I do seem to find more specific information here for that gun. Years ago when we got started with submachineguns everybody warned me that someday the beltfed bug will bite hard. I did not believe them immediately. Boy, they sure were right! It has been quite a journey and a fun one getting here. I have a couple of teenage boys and we have had a great time and have learned a lot.

    We live pretty near (hour 1/2) from Knob Creek. Everybody has been wonderful to the kids. Dolf has befreinded my son and helped him on a "History Day" project for school on the Maxim guns. A lot of the shooters have brought the kids up on the main line with shooting badges and they have had an opportunity to shoot lots of interesting stuff. I am glad they got to know a lot of the guys who are not around any more, like Kent, Howard, Bill V, Bob F. I have to say that all, without exception have been patient and kind to the kids. Non of the guys treat them like little kids. They take time with them and ask their opinions on things and listen. It is not what I expected. I think the boys will part of the new generation that carries on the hobby and they will have the benefits of knowing and learning from the "old timers".

    Sorry to go so long.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Indiana - Home Range Old Trail, Richmond IN
    Posts
    260
    Welcome, this the second 1919A4E1 that I have read about this month ....;-) Glad you made it over from Subguns (it only took me several years to actually sign up here). Any time you have photos and/or videos will be glad to host them for you or take them if need be. http://www.issmc.com/jt/index.htm

    The price keeps going up on the barrels, so would pick up what you think might be a lifetime supply and then get two more ... I use to get Issy 308 "nearly new" barrels at KCR 4 for $100. When ever you go shooting away from home, it is a good idea to carry one or two extra barrels just in case a case separates during the shoot etc. ..... Same for belts, as with out belts or links you have a really hard to load two to three shooter.

    As per our early conversation on Subguns.com, would recommend getting setup to shoot 308 as a back up, which takes a barrel, booster, cartridge stops and maybe a bolt, top cover and trunnion protector if you are shooting links. One can make a case to purchase a parts kit just to have one of everything set back, but not as easy as when they were $300 and under (only got a couple).

    Did you get a belt loader with you system?

    Take Care
    John

  5. #5
    I am thinking of picking up the SARCO duel calibre kit. Says both bbls are "Excellent". I know...Sarco "Excellent" but when we bought a full kit and a bunch of magazines for the Vector UZI from them, they turned out to be as advertised and the service was good. Besides that, they seem to be one of the only kits I still see out there. Does anybody have more to sell to the US, even if barrels are missing? I am beginning to think this may be the tail end of the "good old days" where kits are concerned. I waited too long on the Sten MKII kits for back up spares. THere were boxes of new in grease magazines at the creek a few years back for $4. I passed on those figuring it would always be like that. Boy was I wrong. I still see kits surface from time to time but they are a lot more expensive than they used to be. I think I need to stock up on UZI, Sten, and Mac Magazines before the election as well as links and belts for the 1919. I don't think it will take the dems long to act if the unthinkable happens at the ballot box. I am in pretty good shape on M16 and Reising Mags. The reising mag purchases years ago was one that I did get right. THey are getting pretty scarce and expensive. I did concentrate on H&R mags. Good to hear from you John.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Indiana - Home Range Old Trail, Richmond IN
    Posts
    260
    Well the bad news is if either party gets in and the more "nanny" elements control the house and are close on the senate, we might see some type of new "AWB" just to keep everyone "safe" .... ;-(.

    Back to fire arms, for the 1919A4 you really only "need" a set of insides plus a top cover, which might be easier to find .... Also have to decide if it is time to stock up and store 54R or not.

  7. #7
    Your variety are around, IIRC it was a short time they were in service before the M37 guns started replacing them. The Texas Military museum has about 4 examples and there have been a few C&R guns for sale over the last couple years. Considering the short time they were in service you could say it is rare but you could apply that to almost any gun in the C&R category of the registry. Look forward to pics, Riverrats may be able to provide more specifics (the 1919tech site is his) and having another example of this type to look over may help in some of the research.
    A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
    -Thomas Jefferson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Eugene, OR and China Spring, TX
    Posts
    9,602
    Welcome to the forum, and congrats on finding a rare and unique variation on the Browning guns. The E1 was something of a mystery for those of us who immerse ourselves in all things 1919/1917, when suddenly we found a bunch of guns (as GSG mentioned) as well as plenty of Ordnance Dept drawings, courtesy of our good friend and forum member, Gatekeeper, who is our valued resource at the RIA Museum. The correct mounting brackets for the E1 are pretty rare, though the retracting bar itself is fairly common. We have yet to find the correct screws, though it's possible to adapt something. They are not hardware store fare, though a fairly standard thread pitch. Thinking we might get some made, one day. If you have all the parts, all the better for you. Definitely looking forward to picks.

    As to barrels, I'd see what is at KCR next month. OOW usually has a selection and prices are fair. I have always had good dealings with Sarco, and MG Dave will take good care of you. They are the only major vendor who still has kits for sale. Otherwise, it's primarily the private market and you will see listings here pretty often. Check with DOUBLE8 here, as another source for a 308 kit. The .30 cal barrels are more pricey than 308, but they are not hard to find so far. But I wouldn't even be thinking 308 with a C&R gun like yours. I say stick to .30 cal.

    Occasionally you will see a few kits come up from Cole Distributing, even some original .30 cal kits. You might check with them.
    You work hard, discover that success is not a destination but rather a road you travel upon- mostly up hill. Then, after a while, people going down the other road look up at you, and they call you "lucky."

    Registered: 09-14-2004
    Status: 1919amen
    Total Posts: 1615

    www.1917a1.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Rochester, N.Y.
    Posts
    2,444
    Welcome to the forum and congrtas on the the addition of the browning to your collection, you will not find a better site on the web nor will you find a better and more helpful group of gentlemen. These are certainly the good ole days so grab what you can and plan on a lot of shopping at the creek as that is where you will find some great deals but also watch the threads here as members often sell stuff at great prices. I ho[pe ypou post pictures when you get it as I am sure I speak for all of us when I say we do love our gun porn!
    You are never too old to learn something stupid
    It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice
    Ars Longa Vita Brevis

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Diamond, IL
    Posts
    4,134
    Welcome aboard glad you found M1919tech helpful.

    As Lucky said the E1's were something of a mystery as little had been written about them. We with Gatekeeper's assistance found some production infromation from production history af RIA along with all the drawings. One interesting design feature was the ability to convert them back to A4 configuration with common tools and a bolt handle. Which confirms the temporary nature of the conversion waiting for the M37 to come into full production.

    As for barrels the Stellite with chrome bore and front barrel bearing though more expensive is the the best bet for a full auto they have a 300-400% greater life depending on use..

    I have had good luck using the IMA 100 round reproduction belts others have not you should trya few and see if they serve your needs. They are not the same quality as the USGI but servicable.
    "Fat's all right as long as its not from the neck up" Major General Hunter Liggett circa 1919"
    Looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary, right between SHIT and SYPHILIS" ...... Tom Jisa.... (My father-in-law) circa 1965.. or, if you prefer the more classical......Manus haec inimica tyrannis Einse petit placidam cum liberate quitem. (This hand, enemy to tyrants, By the sword seeks calm peacefulness with liberty)... Algernon Sidney.. (British patriot) circa 1665...

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