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Ohioblacksheep Economy water jacket installation

9K views 24 replies 11 participants last post by  CaptMax 
#1 ·
Hi everybody.
I bought an Ohioblacksheep economy water jacket and would like to put it on my 1917A1 to keep the original bronze end cap and trunnion in good shape. Also I don’t want to mess with soldering. I understand there are rivets to remove to get the old trunnion off? Do you just grind the head off and remove? I will have a gunsmith do the work but wanted to ask if there was anything special about bmg rivets. If it is fairly simple to switch trunnions do people switch back and forth from 1919a4 to 1917A1?

Also, is there a good way to put picatinny rails on this water jacket? Could holes be bored into the jacket to mount the rails? If so, how deep? You never know when you will need a flashlight or laser pointer on your Browning.

Has anyone ever painted the inside of a water jacket with a rust preventative like some kind of radiator paint? I wondered if it there was anything that would be a good rust inhibitor just in case. After assembly I might parkerize it to match the receiver. Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Hi everybody.
I bought an Ohioblacksheep economy water jacket and would like to put it on my 1917A1 to keep the original bronze end cap and trunnion in good shape. Also I don’t want to mess with soldering. I understand there are rivets to remove to get the old trunnion off? Do you just grind the head off and remove? I will have a gunsmith do the work but wanted to ask if there was anything special about bmg rivets. If it is fairly simple to switch trunnions do people switch back and forth from 1919a4 to 1917A1?
First of all, are we talking about a semi 1917A1? Just want to make sure you are not talking about a transferable F/A gun. When you say "original" bronze jacket caps and trunnion, it begs clarification. There is nothing there you need to worry about wearing if you use a trunnion protector over the feedway. But to answer your questions:

There are three rivets holding the trunnion in the receiver. One is a 3/16" rivet through the front/lower corner of the pintle pads, going through both sides with the heads formed and ground flush in the pad surface. The other two are 11/32" that are ground flush after being formed into the right and left side plates. All three of these rivets would need to be carefully drilled out, a process I do not recommend without a vertical mill and great care to find the rivet centers. If you enlarge the holes, it makes more work of reassembly.

It is possible to have a "swappable" trunnion, with a special set of bolts that mimic the effect of rivets while being removable. However, it's not something I recommend necessarily. I have used such a system for some development work, but would not keep it long term. Far simpler to just have a dedicated receiver for each version.

Also, is there a good way to put picatinny rails on this water jacket? Could holes be bored into the jacket to mount the rails? If so, how deep? You never know when you will need a flashlight or laser pointer on your Browning.
In short, no. The jacket wall is very thin, and you would create sealing problems with that. A system that mounts a rail over the top plate of the receiver is your best bet for an optic, even a laser. For just a flashlight, where precision aiming is not so important, one could set up a clamp system like the carry handle uses.

Has anyone ever painted the inside of a water jacket with a rust preventative like some kind of radiator paint? I wondered if it there was anything that would be a good rust inhibitor just in case. After assembly I might parkerize it to match the receiver. Thanks!
I am sure it has been done. You can certainly parkerize inside the tube. But one good method is to use a water soluable cutting oil in with your water when shooting. Then drain the jacket while still very hot. It will leave a layer of protection inside if you do that properly.
 
#5 ·
I STRONGLY suggest you dismiss all ideas of modifying the gun in any way. Unless your RIA gun has been modified or rebuilt in some fashion as to already diminish its value, you can only reduce the value of the gun by modifying it.

I recently had to completely disassemble a transferable RIA gun, which had been very poorly rebuilt with Saginaw left and top plates and welded trunnion rivets. This one could only get improved from a rebuild. But if your piece is intact as originally built, just take proper steps to preserve it. This would include obtaining a trunnion protector to spare the bronze trunnion any feed way wear, and using something like the water soluable oil or other method to ensure the jacket does not rust out. The only examples I know of with jacket repairs are ones where water was left I the jacket for extended periods without proper drying and cleaning. Take good care of your RIA gun and enjoy shooting the heck out of it.
 
#4 ·
you have to drill the heads out using rivet shank size dia drill 1 very large in back of trunnion 1 mid size in upper trunnion just in front of top cover and ,1 small in pintle pad bottom front IIRC .

Rust stop ,i guess you could use gas tank sealer it should work very well (pour in and roll around type ) plug all passages with wax you will have to knife it out after it sets and would seal the trunnion thread very well ,Only an Idea!!!
 
#8 ·
Woah! Let's go back to the beginning and carefully review the situation. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Firstly, you own a transferrable full auto RIA 1917A1? Secondly, you wish to replace your weapon's trunnion, front cap, and water jacket with those of Lou's manufacture? Thirdly, you wish to add a Picatinny rail to the water jacket? Do I have that right?

What are you trying to accomplish? Are your weapon's trunnion, front cap, and water jacket damaged and non-repairable? Are they original to the weapon?

 
#10 ·
Oblacksheep economy water jacket installation

It’s an RIA in great condition. I was thinking about protecting the original water jacket and bronze parts from heavy use. It was weird at first to think of bronze parts on a firearm.
But I was also thinking about it as a weapon. Is this still one of the best machine-guns around? Wouldn’t it be cool to have a well-cared for 1917A1 as a fun hobby but then on the day when the news announces the zombie outbreak you go out to the workshop and transform (A-Team music) this wonderful antique into an efficient zombie buster? With an aftermarket water jacket with Picatinny rails I could mount a laser light, level, flashlight. Some kind of coating inside and out might ease maintenance.
With a 1919A6 buttstock and an improvised bipod like the Maxim 08/15 it might approach the weight of an automatic rifle and you could keep up with riflemen in an advance.
I will still put an ELCAN sight like on the M240 MG on a replacement top cover.
I will keep it in original condition and maybe work on a zombie buster with another weapon.
 
#11 · (Edited)
A little history for you, regarding the bronze jackets. During WWI, and in the few months following the war, just under 70,000 water cooled 1917 guns were produced, with the bronze trunnion and end caps being the standard fashion of the day. By the early 20s, the drawings were updated to indicate steel trunnion and end caps. However, no guns were produced between 1919 and 1941, as there were so many in inventory. The WWI producers were N.E. Westinghouse, Remington and Colt's. In the 30s, many of these guns began to be used as development models, and as the 1919A4 is finalized, it becomes desirable to have more of these and there were more than enough water cooled guns in storage, many never issued. So the old WWI guns went into conversion programs, either remaining as water cooled but updated to 1917A1 spec, with the new bottom plate construction and other upgrades, or converted to air cooled 1919A4s. Then, as we ramped up for the possibility of entering into WWII, RIA was tasked with making new 1917A1 guns, as well as continuing to convert many 1917s to 1919A4 specs. The Ordnance Dept was still on a limited budget, so all old components were ordered to be used before any funds were allotted to making new parts. So here you have unissued 1917s that were being stripped of their beautiful bronze water jackets and made into air cooled guns, leaving all these nice, new condition jackets. So, these jackets went straight on to new RIA 1917A1 receivers until all were finally used up. It is not until about the middle of WWII that RIA begins to have new jacket components manufactured, at which time the material called for back in the 20s finally was used in new manufacture.

As you can see, what you have (based on your description) is one of the WWII RIA guns that was built on a WWI bronze jacket. Any original gun is worth far too much money to modify in anyway that would permanently alter its collectible status. Hence, we are all urging you to go with your last point and get a new piece to modernize as you choose. Some of the ideas you have would need to be developed, and I have already been working on certain modern upgrades in prototype form, though not yet on an water cooled. But then, anything is possible!
 
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#16 ·
That's a horrible thing to say porter :eek: he should bring them to me for safe keeping after all it is an original RIA but alas I have yet to move to a free state :(

Bob thanks for keeping it in original condition it will makle many of us here sleep much better and you will be happy you did so down the road. Too many of these are getting ruined over the course of time and the originals are getting scarce to find unmolested.
 
#18 ·
She looks to be a beauty. Do you know any of the history on the gun? Are there any rebuild markings on her?
 
#24 ·
CaptMax, just caught your post here. It seems I was neglecting the Tech Forum for a while. Anyway, to your point. I really think you SHOULD put the water transfer skulls on the MP. That would only make it even MORE rare, and thus greatly enhance it's value. Just trying to be helpful! :tongue:
 
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