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Thread: FG42 - heaven is near

  1. #11
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    The gun is listed as a DEWAT in "Death from Above"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by glassmountains View Post
    The gun is listed as a DEWAT in "Death from Above"
    This always hurts the value as opposed to a "serviceable" firearm. I wonder if this is the firearm that the news reported that the dealer paid $13k for? If so I would say that was a smoking deal.
    Someday I hope to be able to add one of the semis manufactured by SMG to my collection, I doubt I will ever have the funds to purchase one on a form 4.
    CaptMax
    "Most respect the badge, they all respect the gun" - Robert De Nero in the movie Righteous Kills

  3. #13
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    >Someday I hope to be able to add one of the semis manufactured by SMG to my collection, I doubt I will ever have the funds to purchase one on a form 4.<

    Get your FFL07/SOTII, buy the semi FG42 and convert it to FA as a post sample. I am amazed at how many guys just don't want to do this when they complain about not being able to own x,y and z transferable MGs. With the way posties are appreciating given that they can be sold to a licensed mfg or importer without a letter, it is a golden opportunity with a modest investment.
    A registered DEWAT FG won't suffer much devaluation due to the deactivation as it is still an original C+R gun. I've handled two DEWAT 'G' type FGs and the damage is quite light and repair easy to do. FWIW

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  5. #14
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptMax View Post
    This always hurts the value as opposed to a "serviceable" firearm. I wonder if this is the firearm that the news reported that the dealer paid $13k for? If so I would say that was a smoking deal.
    Someday I hope to be able to add one of the semis manufactured by SMG to my collection, I doubt I will ever have the funds to purchase one on a form 4.
    CaptMax
    These are nice gun's I got on his original waiting list, here she is
    IMG_0609.JPGIMG_0610.JPGIMG_0611.JPGIMG_0612.JPGIMG_0613.JPGIMG_0614.JPG
    The workmanship is a thing of beauty
    1917a1,1919a4,xmg34,mg42,RPD,M3HB,1910RussianMaxim

  6. #15
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg17a1 View Post
    >Someday I hope to be able to add one of the semis manufactured by SMG to my collection, I doubt I will ever have the funds to purchase one on a form 4.<

    Get your FFL07/SOTII, buy the semi FG42 and convert it to FA as a post sample. I am amazed at how many guys just don't want to do this when they complain about not being able to own x,y and z transferable MGs. With the way posties are appreciating given that they can be sold to a licensed mfg or importer without a letter, it is a golden opportunity with a modest investment.
    A registered DEWAT FG won't suffer much devaluation due to the deactivation as it is still an original C+R gun. I've handled two DEWAT 'G' type FGs and the damage is quite light and repair easy to do. FWIW
    Bob, I know you can educate me but I thought to be a C&R gun it couldn't be a rewatt? Besides being on the C&R list what constitutes one? On machine gun prices website there is a big difference between a C&R and one that isn't. Case and point, a Bren gun for instance.
    CaptMax
    "Most respect the badge, they all respect the gun" - Robert De Nero in the movie Righteous Kills

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptMax View Post
    Bob, I know you can educate me but I thought to be a C&R gun it couldn't be a rewatt? Besides being on the C&R list what constitutes one? On machine gun prices website there is a big difference between a C&R and one that isn't. Case and point, a Bren gun for instance.
    CaptMax
    C&R has to meet ONE of three criteria:
    1) Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
    2) Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest
    3) Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what...relic-firearms

    The interesting part is #1. If it is 50 years old, it is automatically a C&R. So, if it was made in 1967 or earlier, it's a C&R.
    DEWATS can be C&R, and if reactivated, retain their C&R status. At this point, you will be hard pressed to find a registered DEWAT that is NOT a C&R!

    Between 1968 and 1986, lots of parts kits were made into machine guns by re-welding receivers or making new ones. At this point, those guns are not C&R. In 2036, ALL transferable machine guns will be C&Rs by virtue of being 50 years old. Unless the law changes, of course..

  8. #17
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    1gewehr notes above the general requirements for C+R status, but not all 50 year old MGs are eligible for that status or are listed on the C+R list. Some require proof of date of manufacture, although ATF has softened their stance on this in recent years. Examples are AK47s and M2 .50 BMGs, due to so many having been made post-'68 Amnesty and the sorry state of vetting transfers of such guns by ATF over the years. Now that ATF has a more sophisticated vetting protocol, with reference to original registration required for every transfer, the element of proof has been less onerous and will probably disappear if it hasn't already. There are quite a few MGs in the NFRTR that are fifty years and older from date of manufacture that have never been offered for listing.
    A registered DEWAT by definition is an MG registered prior to or before the end of the '68 Amnesty. Any registered DEWAT can be legally reactivated, since it is already registered, by an individual by taxed form 1 or by an FFL07/SOTII on form 2. Many DEWATs were not registered before the end of the Amnesty and they are not eligible for legal reactivation and they show up all the time. However, and this is a serious issue for C+R collectors, many unregistered MGs in the US after the Amensty that by law were required to be 'destroyed' first, meaning receivers cut in half or the controlled part reproduced and substituted, for legal registration as remanufactured MGs, were illegally registered as "DEWATs" years after the end of the Amnesty. This was easy to do by individuals and FFL07/SOTIIs. For instance an FFL07SOTII could take an unregistered MG, not cut it in half and weld it back together or make a new replacement for the controlled part, and file a form 2 merely checking the "reactivated" box and send it in. The form 2 would have the name of the original manufacturer and serial number and ATF would be none the wiser since they did not inspect the hardware. No required ID and address of the CII who did the reactivation on the receiver either.These guns were sold to unsuspecting buyers as C+R to make a few extra bucks due to the increased value. Once the form 2 with the bogus registration is processed, the gun is transferred as an "original" with the registration application information reflecting that the MG is original. The tip off is that the date of original registration by form 2 is after the end of the Amnesty so the gun is an illegal registration and illegal C+R. The only way to find this out is filing an FOIA request with ATF for the serial numbers of MGs for which the registrant requires checking. The redacted copies of the original registration, with ate and form number, will tell the owner everything he needs to know about C+R status or not. Unfortunately there are quite a few of these MGs in the NFRTR, enough so that there is actually a collector's market for fake C+R MGs!!
    An FOIA on this FG, proving eligibility as C+R by date of original registration, would be appropriate and, in my opinion, required by any prospective purchaser given the value. Only the current registrant can file the FOIA so it is unlikely that the current registrant has done this or can do it prior to the auction. Perhaps he already has proof. All for now.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg17a1 View Post
    Get your FFL07/SOTII, buy the semi FG42 and convert it to FA as a post sample. I am amazed at how many guys just don't want to do this when they complain about not being able to own x,y and z transferable MGs. With the way posties are appreciating given that they can be sold to a licensed mfg or importer without a letter, it is a golden opportunity with a modest investment. .
    For me the hold up is, 1. a commercial address to use for the FFL. This would almost certainly require renting out space. 2. ITAR... Its pretty clear that this should be paid. When looking at the hassle, and year after year cost of those two... I am not really wealthy enough at this point to afford it.

    I live across the street from a School in Maryland. I just don't see me being able to get an FFL out of my house. If I could use my house and skip ITAR, I would have moved forward with this already.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmg17a1 View Post
    .... Once the form 2 with the bogus registration is processed, the gun is transferred as an "original" with the registration application information reflecting that the MG is original. The tip off is that the date of original registration by form 2 is after the end of the Amnesty so the gun is an illegal registration and illegal C+R. The only way to find this out is filing an FOIA request with ATF for the serial numbers of MGs for which the registrant requires checking. The redacted copies of the original registration, with ate and form number, will tell the owner everything he needs to know about C+R status or not. Unfortunately there are quite a few of these MGs in the NFRTR, enough so that there is actually a collector's market for fake C+R MGs!!
    An FOIA on this FG, proving eligibility as C+R by date of original registration, would be appropriate and, in my opinion, required by any prospective purchaser given the value. Only the current registrant can file the FOIA so it is unlikely that the current registrant has done this or can do it prior to the auction. Perhaps he already has proof. All for now.
    As far as it being C&R eligible, is there any requirement do know for certain? What I mean is that if there is no other way to know, then could one get in trouble by assuming it is as all the evidence in front of them points to a C&R gun. I have seen plenty of Form 4s that have no indication that the guns were ever dewatted and list the manufacturer as the original manufacturer. There is no way to tell that its anything other than it appears, which is a C&R gun. Then you see the gun and find damage from the dewat. I guess my point is, would ignorance not be bliss in most cases? Has the ATF ever called anyone on this? Like you said in a few more years it will not even matter. You know ever detail of the NFA but the ATF... well on my last form 4, they did not believe the standard barrel length of a MG08... Like you can cut down the barrel of a gun with a waterjacket!!! I don't know I see the ATF figuring any of it out. Any what if you had a non-NFA gun. I feel like some of these guns could have been reactivated from Demilled guns and without knowing, one could transfer as C&R...

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMBLITZVT View Post
    For me the hold up is, 1. a commercial address to use for the FFL. This would almost certainly require renting out space. 2. ITAR... Its pretty clear that this should be paid. When looking at the hassle, and year after year cost of those two... I am not really wealthy enough at this point to afford it.

    I live across the street from a School in Maryland. I just don't see me being able to get an FFL out of my house. If I could use my house and skip ITAR, I would have moved forward with this already.



    As far as it being C&R eligible, is there any requirement do know for certain? What I mean is that if there is no other way to know, then could one get in trouble by assuming it is as all the evidence in front of them points to a C&R gun. I have seen plenty of Form 4s that have no indication that the guns were ever dewatted and list the manufacturer as the original manufacturer. There is no way to tell that its anything other than it appears, which is a C&R gun. Then you see the gun and find damage from the dewat. I guess my point is, would ignorance not be bliss in most cases? Has the ATF ever called anyone on this? Like you said in a few more years it will not even matter. You know ever detail of the NFA but the ATF... well on my last form 4, they did not believe the standard barrel length of a MG08... Like you can cut down the barrel of a gun with a waterjacket!!! I don't know I see the ATF figuring any of it out. Any what if you had a non-NFA gun. I feel like some of these guns could have been reactivated from Demilled guns and without knowing, one could transfer as C&R...
    My gun came with the original amnesty paper from '68 where it list it as "serviceable". This was registered by the second owner whom liberated it from Germany in '44. I'm glad he did.
    Once a gun is transferred a couple times this amnesty information is usually lost. As they say, "caveat emptor".
    CaptMax
    "Most respect the badge, they all respect the gun" - Robert De Nero in the movie Righteous Kills

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMBLITZVT View Post

    I live across the street from a School in Maryland. I just don't see me being able to get an FFL out of my house. If I could use my house and skip ITAR, I would have moved forward with this already. ...
    In one of my other lives I was the Zoning Officer (Building Inspector) for a village.


    Local zoning ordinances determine A.How your property is presently zoned. B. Whether or not "Home Based Business"(or some other similar verbiage) are allowed in your zoning category. Some ordinances spell out what can be a Home Based Business, Law Office, photo studio, hair stylist etc. other do not and are rather vague just citing the number of customers allowed on premise at a time, parking, delivery, noise, hazardous material,number of non family employees etc. There may be no prohibitions at all, although being Maryland likely there are restrictions. The location relative to the school may be spelled out too.

    The ATFE applications do, or did ask questions about zoning AND they check with the municipality. I know this from personal experience getting the calls
    "Fat's all right as long as its not from the neck up" Major General Hunter Liggett circa 1919"
    Looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary, right between SHIT and SYPHILIS" ...... Tom Jisa.... (My father-in-law) circa 1965.. or, if you prefer the more classical......Manus haec inimica tyrannis Einse petit placidam cum liberate quitem. (This hand, enemy to tyrants, By the sword seeks calm peacefulness with liberty)... Algernon Sidney.. (British patriot) circa 1665...

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