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Thread: FG42 - heaven is near

  1. #21
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    >As far as it being C&R eligible, is there any requirement do know for certain? What I mean is that if there is no other way to know, then could one get in trouble by assuming it is as all the evidence in front of them points to a C&R gun. I have seen plenty of Form 4s that have no indication that the guns were ever dewatted and list the manufacturer as the original manufacturer. There is no way to tell that its anything other than it appears, which is a C&R gun. Then you see the gun and find damage from the dewat. I guess my point is, would ignorance not be bliss in most cases? Has the ATF ever called anyone on this? Like you said in a few more years it will not even matter. You know ever detail of the NFA but the ATF... well on my last form 4, they did not believe the standard barrel length of a MG08... Like you can cut down the barrel of a gun with a waterjacket!!! I don't know I see the ATF figuring any of it out. Any what if you had a non-NFA gun. I feel like some of these guns could have been reactivated from Demilled guns and without knowing, one could transfer as C&R…<

    Not sure what you are getting at here. The issue is that a buyer of a C+R MG pays a significant premium for an original factory MG and the C+R transfer status. If the gun turns out to have been registered after the end of the '68 Amnesty and is not legally a C+R, the buyer is out a lot of money for an overpriced reman. Registrations have been notoriously inaccurate over many many years for many different reasons and especially for C+R MGs so add in the fake C+R MGs and the NFRTR is further compromised. Now ATF vets every transfer application against the original registration. and, yes, ATF is constantly having to deal with MGs that were illegally and incorrectly registered, but in their effort to "clean up" the registry they are very forgiving. They are in a tough spot since an owner that has a compromised MG can make an issue out of it if he is hassled by ATF, further proving that the NFRTR is too badly polluted and can't be used in any registration prosecutions by the US attorneys.
    No registrations except early F1s and 5s had a line describing the nature of the deactivation. If the original form 5 had that info it should have continued on in subsequent F5 transfers, but many registered DEWATs were just transferred by F4s so the paper trails was interrupted. Further, once the gun is reactivated, the information does not carry onto the next transfer. The only way to prove that an MG was registered prior to or during the '68 Amnesty is with an FOIA request with a copy of the original registration showing date and form of registration.
    When all MGs are "C+R" that doesn't change the value and premium for original factory MGs. As the years go by all it does is progressively dilute the C+R designation as more and more remanufactured MGs became "eligible" for that transfer status. In my opinion ATF will add a provision for eligibility for C+R that requires them to be original factory MGs thus retaining the value of the C+R designation. Otherwise it has no meaning any more if remans are C+R eligible. In any case original MGs will always have a higher value than a reman example of the same gun. FWIW

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmg17a1 View Post
    Not sure what you are getting at here. The issue is that a buyer of a C+R MG pays a significant premium for an original factory MG and the C+R transfer status. If the gun turns out to have been registered after the end of the '68 Amnesty and is not legally a C+R, the buyer is out a lot of money for an overpriced reman. Registrations have been notoriously inaccurate over many many years for many different reasons and especially for C+R MGs so add in the fake C+R MGs and the NFRTR is further compromised. Now ATF vets every transfer application against the original registration. and, yes, ATF is constantly having to deal with MGs that were illegally and incorrectly registered, but in their effort to "clean up" the registry they are very forgiving. They are in a tough spot since an owner that has a compromised MG can make an issue out of it if he is hassled by ATF, further proving that the NFRTR is too badly polluted and can't be used in any registration prosecutions by the US attorneys.
    No registrations except early F1s and 5s had a line describing the nature of the deactivation. If the original form 5 had that info it should have continued on in subsequent F5 transfers, but many registered DEWATs were just transferred by F4s so the paper trails was interrupted. Further, once the gun is reactivated, the information does not carry onto the next transfer. The only way to prove that an MG was registered prior to or during the '68 Amnesty is with an FOIA request with a copy of the original registration showing date and form of registration.
    When all MGs are "C+R" that doesn't change the value and premium for original factory MGs. As the years go by all it does is progressively dilute the C+R designation as more and more remanufactured MGs became "eligible" for that transfer status. In my opinion ATF will add a provision for eligibility for C+R that requires them to be original factory MGs thus retaining the value of the C+R designation. Otherwise it has no meaning any more if remans are C+R eligible. In any case original MGs will always have a higher value than a reman example of the same gun. FWIW
    Guess here is what I was saying:

    Case 1. Original MG08/15 brought home in WWI and registered in 1934. Clearly original gun. Currently on form 4.
    Case 2. Original MG08/15 brought home in WWI, unregistered until 1970s. Dealer "manufactured it" which really means he just registered it without demilling/rewelding the receiver, which was technically illegal... however one can't tell from current form 4.

    The only way to tell the difference is a FOIA request. Otherwise its fair to assume both guns are C&R guns. What I was asking it if ignorance is bliss... if you don't know why not just assume its a C&R gun? I did not know the ATF was checking this when the form 4 C&R was submitted. However it does make sense now why the ATF once told me one of my Maxims was registered in 1941 and then went through an impossible series of Form 3, 4, and 5 with no form 1 or 2s in between. I don't think they were suppose to tell me the later part of that. Anyway, its almost impossible for someone to know this info without a FOIA request. So are you suggesting that all MG owners start getting FOIA requests in for their MGs? I mean I received 2 of my Maxims on C&R transfers, so they should be good assuming the ATF Checked them during the transfer. The M11 I know is a 1986 gun, so that will be the last MG to become C&R. I am not sure on my M16 but that does not matter value wise and I would certainly need to find out for a C&R transfer. Well lets hope the Jap Type 96 I have coming goes through... It will cost a year of time if the Form 4 C&R does not work and I am forced into a Form 3 and Form 4... plus a more money.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMBLITZVT View Post
    Guess here is what I was saying:

    Case 1. Original MG08/15 brought home in WWI and registered in 1934. Clearly original gun. Currently on form 4.
    Case 2. Original MG08/15 brought home in WWI, unregistered until 1970s. Dealer "manufactured it" which really means he just registered it without demilling/rewelding the receiver, which was technically illegal... however one can't tell from current form 4.

    The only way to tell the difference is a FOIA request. Otherwise its fair to assume both guns are C&R guns. What I was asking it if ignorance is bliss... if you don't know why not just assume its a C&R gun? I did not know the ATF was checking this when the form 4 C&R was submitted. However it does make sense now why the ATF once told me one of my Maxims was registered in 1941 and then went through an impossible series of Form 3, 4, and 5 with no form 1 or 2s in between. I don't think they were suppose to tell me the later part of that. Anyway, its almost impossible for someone to know this info without a FOIA request. So are you suggesting that all MG owners start getting FOIA requests in for their MGs? I mean I received 2 of my Maxims on C&R transfers, so they should be good assuming the ATF Checked them during the transfer. The M11 I know is a 1986 gun, so that will be the last MG to become C&R. I am not sure on my M16 but that does not matter value wise and I would certainly need to find out for a C&R transfer. Well lets hope the Jap Type 96 I have coming goes through... It will cost a year of time if the Form 4 C&R does not work and I am forced into a Form 3 and Form 4... plus a more money.
    <

    Assume NOTHING with registration paperwork. Those collectors buying an MG purported to be C+R, meaning an original factory example, often want confirmation that it is correctly registered as C+R eligible, which is entirely fair given the values. Yes, aside from a copy of the original registration held by the registrant such as an Amnesty 4467 etc, an FOIA search is the only means to verify that an MG alleged to be C+R was actually correctly registered.
    Generally Maxims are OK but I know of two that were fakes, plus several for which ATF did not have a copy of the original registration in the NFRTR. the guns missing the original regs had to be vetted by Gary Schaible who allowed them to be declared C+R with a note in their respective NFRTR archives. That took about six mnths to straighten out and ATF was generous.
    There is one major company that registered many vintage MGs as remanufactured, but did not cut and weld many of them although they did mark and serial the guns as remanufactured, so they are not fake C+R. I'll tell you which outfit it is by phone but not on a public site. I've handled half a dozen MGs from this outfit so know it for a fact.
    FOIAs are now taking a year for processing so if you want a search done, do it now.

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  5. #24
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    >This particular FG may have a ser. number listed as JMCO4254 so I'd assume it's "remanufactured" until otherwise proven to be c+r.<

    Reactivations require marking by the "maker" so it could just as well be that. Again FOIA is the only way to tell without exclusive access to NFRTR. Larry smith, who reactivated many MGs used to put LS in front of the serial when he filed the FIIs for some reason and that identifies his work. Using the original serial number can go either way. Others have done the same thing.
    Actually ATF has been asked a number of times to accept only the the "value" criteria for eligibility for very some rare remans but said no. An MG only needs to meet one of the criteria but ATF is adamant that just having value without "unique" along will not fly for C+R. That's why various MGs have been listed: WH Thompson, tool room S&Ws, Tippmans, ete, etc. Maybe it's time to press the issue again…..

  6. #25
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    Jan 2017
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    The 4 FG 42's I bought at Free's auction

    Quote Originally Posted by bmg17a1 View Post
    >This particular FG may have a ser. number listed as JMCO4254 so I'd assume it's "remanufactured" until otherwise proven to be c+r.<

    Reactivations require marking by the "maker" so it could just as well be that. Again FOIA is the only way to tell without exclusive access to NFRTR. Larry smith, who reactivated many MGs used to put LS in front of the serial when he filed the FIIs for some reason and that identifies his work. Using the original serial number can go either way. Others have done the same thing.
    Actually ATF has been asked a number of times to accept only the the "value" criteria for eligibility for very some rare remans but said no. An MG only needs to meet one of the criteria but ATF is adamant that just having value without "unique" along will not fly for C+R. That's why various MGs have been listed: WH Thompson, tool room S&Ws, Tippmans, ete, etc. Maybe it's time to press the issue again…..
    Yes the gun is remanufactured as Bob knows and it has never been represented as anything else. I'm at a lost to even see the line of discussion for it being C&R...? All four of the FG42's (1 Model 1, 3 Model 2) I purchased in the auction have been fired and run well. In fact they are all matching with the exception of this one that has a mis matched charging handle... I'm wondering JOHNSON LMG, whats so funny about my collection? Have you ever seen it? Should you have any other questions about these 4-FG42's or the other 6 MG's I got in the auction, I'm here.

    Charlie Logan
    PTRS 14.5

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